Recently, it has become popular to compare Mt. Lebanon with Cranberry, especially in the debate over turf and grass. The grass field folks want to know why we can't be more like the neighbors to the north and have awesome grass fields. My initial reaction is that Cranberry has a better understanding of what recreation means to a community and hase invested heavily in field spaces over the last 10 years. However, the analysis goes much deeper than that. So, before the comparison between Lebo and Cranberry gets any further out of hand, let's address some facts.
Lebo has 1 municipal field (Bird) that can be used for regulation soccer, football and lacrosse games. If we add Jefferson and Mellon to the equation, we have 3. I hate adding the HS to the equation because it is primarily used for HS sports and can't really be considered as part of the inventory, but to keep all of the doubters happy let's throw it in there for a grand total of 4 full sized fields. Each of the above grass fields is used by multiple groups and multiple sports year round. In other words, they are not dedicated. In Lebo, we also play lacrosse, soccer, football, field hockey, and of course baseball on our baseball fields. All year long.
On the other hand, Graham Park in Cranberry alone has 7 full size lacrosse/football/soccer fields. Of this inventory, 3 are dedicated to football and lacrosse (because they are played in different seasons) and 4 are dedicated to soccer. Graham Park's 5 baseball fields are dedicated solely for baseball.
North Boundary Park in Cranberry has 3 soccer fields (including the Giant Eagle Soccer Field) and an American Legion baseball field.
Community Park in Cranberry has 5 lighted baseball fields, a lighted football field, and 2 multisport practice fields.
To be fair in our comparison, the Seneca Valley HS campus has a turfed stadium, 2 additional baseball fields and 3 more multipurpose grass fields, but I'm not sure the folks from Cranberry even venture over to Jackson Twp to use them. If we include the 4 multipurpose fields at SVHS, that gives Cranberry a total of 17 multipurpose fields, or 13 if we leave out the HS campus.
The 7 fields at Graham Park are subject to strict schedule of rest and use. They have that luxury. In fact, I think a number of the Graham Park fields are currently closed until Fall. There are plenty of other fields to handle the demand.
In case you're wondering, Cranberry's population in 2010 was just over 28,000.
So, if you consider all of the above, it is very easy to understand why Cranberry's 13 grass fields are in such wonderful condition for the dedicated seasons in which they are used, while our 3 fields are tasked with accommodating every sport over 12 months for the same size community.
Dave,
ReplyDeleteI have only one suggestion that I would strongly recommend you consider. Quit wasting your time debating with the 6 or 7 arrogant readers of another Lebo blog.
There is absolutely nothing that you can say or do to convince them to change their minds, and quite frankly, no one is listening to them anyway. They obviously haven't figured out that posting ignorant and mean spirited emails will get them nowhere.
I'll offer you good luck David....but I don't think you will need it.
2011 CBS Pittsburgh Nomination for Local Affairs goes too... envelope please... ta da Lebocitizens!
ReplyDeleteToo bad Dave, maybe next year!
David,
ReplyDeleteI would wholeheartedly agree with yesterday's 9:51AM poster. And if you needed another reason, the follow- up post from 10:15AM is a perfect example. la te da
Well then I think it best that we stop talking about them here as well. Thanks for your cooperation.
ReplyDeleteWere any of the sports programs eliminated this week when the groups were scheduling the feild permits? I heard that there were a number of programs that were being discussed to eliminate due to the field shortage.
ReplyDeleteAny idea where the 9th grade football team is going to practice, now that there is no rockpile?
ReplyDeleteI'm told that the field meeting went well and that they were able to at least find some time and space for everyone. Some sports will undoubtedly be using elementary school baseball fields for practice, which is less than ideal but certainly better than the alternative.
ReplyDeleteAs for freshman football, I don't know any exact details, but I assume that they will be at one of the elementary school fields. I'm sure formal announcements will be coming soon.
Mr. Franklin,
ReplyDeletePlaying football, soccer, etc on the elementary school baseball fields in the fall weather will ruin those fields, and make the existing problem even worse!!!
I can't say that I disagree. Obviously, common sense should prevail regarding when practice should be canceled etc. Unfortunately, that's where we are these days. The alternative is to eliminate programs or rent fields elsewhere.
ReplyDeleteThe Wildcat proposal would allow for a regulation size soccer field parallel to Cedar Blvd. I'm just curious id there is enough space to perhaps have 2 side by side football fields that run perpendicular to the proposed soccer field dimensions?
ReplyDeleteOr maybe you have more programs than you can afford!
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure what that means. We can afford all of them. The problem is that we have 100s of kids looking for a place to play. .
ReplyDeleteLet's use football as an example. In the Fall, there are 3 high school teams (varsity, JV and freshman), 2 middle school teams and about 12-14 youth teams (grades 1-6). All of those teams are looking for field time. The varsity and JV football teams have it pretty easy because they use the HS turf. The remaining 15 or so teams are all sharing the same spaces.
Now, add to that equation boys and girls varsity, JV and freshman soccer (5 teams), varsity, JV and middle school field hockey (3 teams), about 1,000 youth soccer players and I think you can begin to understand why the field space issue is a need more than it is a want.
I would prefer that we not have to tell kids they must wait until they are in middle school before they can participate in a Fall sport. If that means we double up on baseball fields, so be it. But there are better solutions that will benefit everyone and preserve our grass fields in the long run.
Excuse me Lebofields, but cut the BS.
ReplyDeleteWe can't afford them all!
You didn't give a rats a** when the district eliminated the rifle range, tennis courts or little ballfield.
Nor did your YSA buddies think past your Taj Mahal Sports Wing and it's impact on the the Rock Pile.
If these sports starved kids are so hungry for these activities, why aren't they out playing during the day when the fields are empty?
Good day Mr. Lebofields
Thank you for explaining the need that this community has with our field space. Your last post is a perfect example of the problem and many residents do not understand the severity. Almost none of the youth programs existed when these facilities were built. While enrollment might be down, the number of kids (both boys and girls) playing multiple youth sports is far greater now.
ReplyDeleteGood day 8:07. If you want to disagree, that's fine. Please try to do so like an adult. I'm happy to engage in a mature discussion. If you want to scream and swear, please do so someplace else.
ReplyDeleteThe tennis courts will be rebuilt. Horseman field could only be used for Pinto baseball since it was so small, not to mention it was in horrible condition. And I believe the rock pile was not supposed to be impacted initially by the HS construction.
ReplyDeleteThe need exists. Good luck Lebo Fields.
The rockpile will be rebuilt AND was always considered as a staging area.
ReplyDeleteThe rifle range is never going to be replaced requiring those athletes to find other facilities.
Your arguments for turfing don't hold up under accurate investigation.
One other fact, K-12 enrollments are projected to drop even further by the PA Dept of Ed for many years. Further reducing the strain on our fields.
And I didn't swear, but your attitude, dishonesty, and holier than thou attitude makes me not only want to swear, but spit also.
Tell me genius, just when do you plan to turf Wildcat/Middle? Now, then you've effectively eliminated the rest of ballsball and fall sports at that location this year.
ReplyDeleteWait till winter and you've eliminated parking for students and for events at the peak of the hockey season!
You really need to quit thinking of yourself for a change.
Even if you get your way we'd have to wait until completion of the HS project.
I always debate accepting anonymous comments. I usually do simply because I want everyone to appreciate the sheer craziness of some people. And further, I'm pretty confident that when it comes time to speak about this issue in an official forum, using real names, these folks will be nowhere to be found.
ReplyDeleteChange the topic when you don't want to discuss the issues, right Mr. Lebofields.
ReplyDeleteAh yes, now my critics have resorted to F bombs. When you can't debate facts, send in a bunch of 4 letter words.
ReplyDelete11:29, I'll discuss the issues all day long. Pick a time and a place.
ReplyDeleteToday here and now on your blog. After all what is it for?
ReplyDelete10:01 asked some polite questions which you have yet to answer.
So you asked name the time and place.
Well, this is the time and this is the place!
10:01, it's obviously not going to be now. The Commissioners need to approve the project, decide whether it will be part of a larger Rec bond, float the bond, select a contractor, etc.
ReplyDeleteThe short answer is, as soon as possible. If the work carries over into the Spring, the HS baseball team can play over at Mellon until the work is complete.
If your objection is that some or all of us may be inconvenienced for a few weeks or months, I can't really help that. Work at the pool, ice rink and golf course will cause disruptions there too. Should we punt on all of the work because we're too soft to handle some down time, or lost parking?
Further, if we are already upside down because of the high school project, parking, field limits, etc., I'd rather get it all out of the way. Not sure why we would have to wait.
Incredible, unbelievable logic. You suggest we may be too soft because we can't handle some down time, yet is is absolutely essential that some 7 and 8 years never experience a rained out game that can be made up.
ReplyDeletePlus suddenly and magically these overused fields can suddenly absorb the loss of two more.
I thought you said there weren't enough slots. How'd you find time to move the high school team over to Mellon in the spring? All along you've been crying that all the sports can't find timeodious to practice or play, but now suddenly Mellon's opento pick up the lost Wildcat/Middle activities.
Somethings amiss here. You crying that a gallon of sports activities won't fit in a half gallon bowl. But now that gallon sill fit in a quart, just like that!
At least by waiting for the completion of the high scoop project you get back the probably improved rockpile, before you take Wilcat/Middle out of circulation.
You did not answer, where does student parking and winter rec parking go once you start. turfing at Wildcat/Middle. Once again by waiting until the end of the HS project we get back the half of the HS south parking lot that is out of use.
ReplyDeleteI know... Let's just shut down all extracurricular activities here in the bubble until Lebofields installs their turf and renovates everything!
Not sure how we pay for all this madness, but it'll sure look pretty when it's done... Right.
Dave,
ReplyDeleteIf needed (and I don't expect it will be) the parking area next to the tennis courts on Cedar Blvd could easily be used. It is actually closer to the high school.
I assume any turf installation would most likely be completed outside of baseball season, but perhaps that concept is too hard for someone to grasp.
The last time I looked, there was another parking lot (if you can call it that) next to the Wildcat batting cages, so I wouldn't expect any impact to the Middle field lot during construction.
ReplyDeleteFine, if the batting cage lot is sufficient for construction staging then maybe the impact won't be that great.
ReplyDeleteBut all these fine details, availability at Mellon, parking, event conflicts need to be thought before we rush headlong into another construction project in that area.
After all, LeboFields said the rockpile wasn't to be taken off line initially and here we are with one less athletic space for four years.
Now the rush to turf will take another two off line for 6-8 weeks,.
I still maintain that we hold off on any contriction at Wildcat/Middle until we recover use of the South HS parking lot and the rockpile.
We won't be out anything we don't currently have by waiting.
I won't speak for David, but I believe that one of his previous posts said that all of these details have been discussed/addressed, but that it is a bit premature to review them all now if the concept isn't even approved.
ReplyDeleteIn the interim, I look at it this way. If it takes only HALF of the time that it did to get the high school project started, it would be right on schedule with the completion date.
2:52 kind of like the head long rush to purchase the Twin Hills and McNeilly properties.
ReplyDeleteHad the commissions dotted the i's and crossed the t's, before committing to these boondoggles, support for artificial turf might be easier to garner.
But you do it your way... Leap first then worry about what happens when you hit the ground!
David,
ReplyDeleteWhat's the next step in the process and when should we expect to hear something? Will Kluck actually come up with alternative plan, or will he simply continue to refute the one you presented (which he requested)?
Actually 4:19, had the then Commissioners finished the job that was started when McNeilly was bought, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. I cannot understand why they would purchase the property SOLELY for the purpose of developing it into field space and then do absolutely nothing. The Commissioners dropped the ball then, and Kluck's decision to turn his back on Dan Miller's plan to "finish the job" last year was equally lame.
ReplyDeleteAs for Twin Hills, I don't find the green space one bit. Who knows, at some point we may wish to develop it and increase the tax base. One thing you can't got tot the store and buy is land. It's nice to have. I don't think it has the same restrictions as McNeilly.
1:28, who is rushing?
ReplyDeleteAlso, do you support the Fraasch proposal to build smaller grass fields along Cedar and in Robb Hollow for about the same price as turf on Wildcat? What are the logistics of that plan - parking, public works, redirection of streams, environmental impact, neighborhood complaints, etc?
12:58, I have not spoken to any of the Commissioners lately to know if there are any developments. I am optimistic that there will be some movement towards a comprehensive Rec bond that will include many upgrades, as well as turf.
ReplyDeleteMatt's goal in presenting the turf objections at the last meeting was somewhat lost on me. He has already stated his "no" vote on a bond (repeatedly), so it really doesn't matter if we want to build fields out grass, turf or anything else - his vote will still be no.
12:58, I have not spoken to any of the Commissioners lately to know if there are any developments. I am optimistic that there will be some movement towards a comprehensive Rec bond that will include many upgrades, as well as turf.
ReplyDeleteMatt's goal in presenting the turf objections at the last meeting was somewhat lost on me. He has already stated his "no" vote on a bond (repeatedly), so it really doesn't matter if we want to build fields out grass, turf or anything else - his vote will still be no.
Since most of the community does not watch the commissioner metings on MtL cable, I appreciate you reminding everyone of Mr. Kluck's failure to back Dan Miller's plan.
ReplyDeleteI will be very interested in hearing his position on Mrs. Fraasch's newest plan.